Name: Flat Worms
Members: Justin Sullivan, Tim Hellman, Will Ivy
Interviewee: Will Ivy
Nationality: American
Current release: The new Flat Worms album Witness Marks is out September 22nd 2023 via Drag City.
Recomendations: Read the collection of stories Men Without Women by Haruki Murakami and watch Drive My Car, the film directed by Ryusuke Hamaguchi. The movie shares a name with one of the stories, and the plot is mostly based on that story. What is really fascinating is how it weaves in themes from several other stories in the collection as well. I actually watched the movie first and really enjoyed discovering pieces of the film in each story.

If you enjoyed this Flat Worms interview and would like to stay up to date with the band and their music, visit them on Instagram.  



When I listen to music, I see shapes, objects and colours. What happens in your body when you're listening? Do you listen with your eyes open or closed?

Recently I was invited to a hi-fi record listening party at a friend's house. Everyone invited brings a few records and you take turns playing one song and everyone just deep listens. Too often I end up listening to music passively. While driving, cooking, things like that. I was glad to be reminded that records can be an immersive experience. Look at the art, sit still, listen to the music.

I bought a record cleaning kit for the first time to actually care for my records. They sound better and it was fun to interact with them, to re-experience my collection again and to actually make listening to records the main activity again.

Music totally transforms spaces. Plenty of times I have experienced my body more at ease when the right music is playing, and the same in the reverse. A restaurant or cafe I would have otherwise lingered in can be somewhat ruined by the wrong music, or music being played too loud. Often it can be too hard for me to tune music out, which I do feel on a physical level. Music is as much a part of a space as a table and chairs.

I am starting to get a negative reaction when I hear Frank Sinatra in public because it is too omni-present. It’s a shame because I actually do love Frank, but he seems to have become the new substitute for smooth jazz.

What were your very first steps in music like and how would you rate the gains made through experience - can one train/learn being an artist?

I first started playing in bands when I was in high school after discovering punk and DIY shows.

I grew up in Phoenix, AZ and found venues like The Nile, Modified Arts, and Trunk Space where I first encountered bands of young people doing it themselves: standing at the merch table, booking shows, piling in a van together. That blew my mind because it put music within reach. After high school when I moved to San Francisco I even befriended some of the people I saw playing in these spaces.

I truly think that all humans have the capacity for creativity, or to be an artist. Some people have a harder time accessing it or just have some kind of block. Even I can have a hard time accessing my creativity the older I get. It is a muscle that should be worked continuously.

According to scientific studies, we make our deepest and most incisive musical experiences between the ages of 13-16. What did music mean to you at that age and what’s changed since then?

Like I mentioned already at age 13 - 16 I was discovering punk, and being dropped off by my mom at shows (thanks mom). These experiences made music my total inspiration. Luckily my mom also let me and my friends have band practice in our living room (thanks again mom). In the summer in Phoenix, AZ, all you can really do is spend time indoors in the AC, so we were able to learn our instruments, write songs, and be creative instead of feeling aimless as teenagers.  

I never stopped playing in bands and music is still my primary creative practice. Sometimes it drives me crazy, but most often it is so rewarding. What I know is that when I am not engaged with making music somehow, I do not feel right.  

I am noticing that the music industry and scene seems to have changed recently, and seems to be going through a transition at the hands of new technology: streaming, media, etc. I don’t know where it is headed, but there seem to be new challenges for artists in an already challenging landscape.

What, would you say, are the key ideas behind your approach to music and what motivates you to create?

One thing I like to do is set parameters. If I am sitting down to work on something, what are going to be the boundaries that I will make this music within?

Music can be truly infinite if you think about how much potential there is to alter every component. Think about a synthesiser. Rather than the bass just being a bass guitar, it can be tweaked and adjusted to have a totally unique character to infinity. Guitar pedals offer the same thing. It can be daunting to consider all of the possibilities, and sometimes I have observed people getting lost in “tone” or “sound” to the detriment of the music making process, becoming more technical than creative. Of course there is a balance.

That is what is so great about starting a band, and collaborating with others. You have already decided on the sound you are pursuing, and you all work together to accomplish that. A bandmate can pull you back from outer space and help get you back on track.

I would say when I create I am less interested in perfection and more motivated to get the idea down to experience the rewarding feeling of bringing a new song to life, and doing it again.

To quote a question by the great Bruce Duffie: When you come up with a musical idea, have you created the idea or have you discovered the idea?

If I had to guess I think it is more of a combination. Most ideas now are influenced by the billions of contributions to art and thought over human history. We absorb ideas through osmosis, then add our creativity to them to make something new.

I like what David Lynch has to say about ideas. Here is a quote:

“Ideas are so beautiful and they’re so abstract. And they do exist someplace. I don’t know if there’s a name for it. And I think they exist, like fish. And I believe that if you sit quietly, like you’re fishing, you will catch ideas.”

Paul Simon said “the way that I listen to my own records is not for the chords or the lyrics - my first impression is of the overall sound.” What's your own take on that and how would you define your personal sound?

I have to agree with Paul on this one. I am sure you have those moments where you thought you knew the lyrics of a song then realised you were totally wrong the whole time.

I think I experience music for the big picture then zoom in on certain aspects if I am curious about them. Usually it is just some characteristic of the music that draws me in, and it has nothing to do at all with the composition of the song.  

One of my favourite bands is The Fall, and from the very first time I heard them it was the ferocity that drew me in. Most of the time it is difficult to know what he is saying, or he is making some obscure reference to Northern England that I wouldn’t understand anyways. Something about the delivery and the urgency of Mark E. Smith and the band have always been so captivating to me.



When Flat Worms was starting we were talking about the Fall a lot, as well as bands like Swell Maps, but also Fugazi. We wanted to make something that felt immediate, and present. When we play live, we set up across the front of the stage, facing each other to bring the focus to the present moment. We watch each other and play off of each other, which is also what makes us jam well together, and I would say defines our sound.



Sound, song, and rhythm are all around us, from animal noises to the waves of the ocean. What, if any, are some of the most moving experiences you've had with these non-human-made sounds? In how far would you describe them as “musical”?

Lately I have been trying to remember to tap back into these sounds. There are so many distractions, including, or perhaps especially, the phones in our pockets that enable us to fill every empty moment with entertainment. Even music can be a distraction. It is important to get back in touch with the nature that surrounds us.

When writing lyrics I draw on images from nature a lot. I am totally guilty of self-distraction, which I think is necessary to an extent. But it is important to also listen to birdsong, frogs croaking, crickets chirping, waves crashing; it is what is truly real.

I don’t think it is even necessary for me to describe how the sounds of nature are musical, they simply are.

From very deep/high/loud/quiet sounds to very long/short/simple/complex compositions - are there extremes in music you feel drawn to and what response do they elicit?

There is a time and place for everything. I will happily listen to a William Basinski decaying tape loop for 20 minutes or a 60 second Flux of Pink Indians song for the variety of responses they elicit.



Life’s rich tapestry!

Could you describe your creative process on the basis of one of your pieces, live performances or albums that's particularly dear to you, please?

Flat Worms has a new record coming out called Witness Marks. When I first set out to write the lyrics, I wanted to make it lighter, more abstract, and even add more humour than our previous LP: Antarctica. I was reading a lot of Haruki Murakami and was interested in exploring something like magical realism. The world was opening up from COVID, and I learned my wife was pregnant. Everything around me felt alive and full of joy.

Then at one traumatic appointment, we suddenly learned our pregnancy was not viable. It was devastating, and set me on a completely unexpected path of mourning. My marriage was challenged as we stared into the abyss together, and suddenly it wasn’t clear what the path forward was.

I dealt most acutely with my grief on the title song "Witness Marks," which is also a good example of the band’s combined creativity. The idea began with a bassline Tim had brought in, and we built the rest of the song together piece by piece, playing in the moment together, stopping to discuss, trying again. From one idea, each member of the band brought their influence and it turned into something uniquely ours.

If you listen closely at the very beginning, you can hear a recording of the heartbeat of the child we lost, which was my way of preserving him and honouring him. The song is about grief, but also about the impression that people leave on you, even if they are with you for only a short time. In the world of antique clocks, a "witness mark" is a scratch placed inside an old clock, a means of communication between clock restorers designed to aid continued maintenance for posterity. As we observe and pay witness to each other, we leave a mark on each other’s lives.

Writing and creating can be hard to do when you are going through something so hard. What I think is interesting about making a record is how it serves as a document, a time and place in the life of the artists who contributed. Tim and Justin were also going through their own hardships with mental health, heartbreak, etc. At its best, a band or a creative project can be a haven, and I think that was definitely the case for us this time around.

Witness Marks is really just a message in a time capsule from a group of artists, a group of humans, and our experience living today in our ever-changing absurd world, and all that comes along with that: love, grief, anxiety, absurdity, and perseverance.

My wife and I are now pregnant again and our son is due to arrive this month, at almost the same time the record is set to be released. Life is painful but also beautiful.

Do you conduct “experiments” or make use of scientific insights when you're making music?

I would say I am entirely non-scientific, I prefer a more intuitive approach. I do not know music theory. I enjoy spontaneity in music and creation.

There are new instruments or pedals or things we will experiment with as a band, but ultimately the best things come out in the moment playing together, when you have to come up with something on the spot because the song is happening.

How does the way you make music reflect the way you live your life? Can we learn lessons about life by understanding music on a deeper level?

To continue from the last question, I guess I would say I have a similar approach to life at times. I like to be spontaneous and am drawn towards expressing feelings or desires. I love adventure, travel, eating out, experiencing places and people.

Of course people learn lessons from music. Music is communication, and has a long tradition of being so. Documenting history, telling stories. Without the instruments it is people talking to you melodically. Even instrumental music can teach us things, or open up pathways we haven’t yet experienced.

Being inspired by a piece of music means we have learned something about ourselves at the hands of the song.

Do you feel as though writing or performing a piece of music is inherently different from something like making a great cup of coffee? What do you express through music that you couldn't or wouldn't in more 'mundane' tasks?

The life of a musician is full of mundane activities. Tour is 90% mundanity: driving, stopping for food, checking in and out of hotels, sound checking, killing time.

But the 10% of the time you spend performing your music to new people in a city where you don’t live is the most life affirming thing. It is addicting, and it is what makes it hard for career musicians to retire. I think the moment of performing music, or the moment you create something you feel strongly about is anything but mundane.

With that said, the mundane tasks make these moments possible. Life is not a movie.

Every time I listen to "Albedo 0.39" by Vangelis, I choke up. But the lyrics are made up of nothing but numbers and values. Do you, too, have a song or piece of music that affects you in a way that you can't explain?

When I first learned the news that my wife was pregnant, I had a memory of the song “Sharkey’s Day” by Laurie Anderson. I had already really liked the song, but it suddenly moved me really deeply in a new way.



It feels full of wonder and child-like wisdom, and it resonated with me so deeply thinking about this new person we will be bringing into the world. I even started using the nickname Sharkey when referring to our son.

If you could make a wish for the future – what are developments in music you would like to see and hear?

My only wish is that people keep starting bands and playing shows in warehouses, and that music continues to surprise and inspire.